Need all sorts of help

[PatrickRay]

Yes, should be able to.

awesome thanks. I finally got the cylinder out. I posted a picture of the head. do you think its still in good condition? I haven't cleaned it yet or anything. and it still feels pretty smooth

 

[olds97_lss]

These engines build compression due to the sleeve being tapered ever so slightly at the top. The taper usually starts above the exhaust port and it "pinches" the piston. It's termed as "pinch" in RC. When the engine heats up, the sleeve expands which alleviates the binding of the pinch but still retains a close enough mechanical fit to seal and create compression. This is why you will see people saying not to turn an engine over unless your trying to start it. When cold, the piston/sleeve essentially grind on each other.

As the engines wear out, the piston wears down and when at running temp, the pinch is too wide/weak to retain compression and you get blow by which causes compression loss, bad running, flaming out/stalling.

The break-in process mates the piston to the sleeve and the pinch is usually really tight when new, which is why you have to run it kind of rich and take it easy for the first 5-10 tanks as the engine wears itself in. Some take even longer to stabilize/wear in. I've had some be broken in at 1/2 gallon, others at 1 and 1/2 gallons. Just depends on the quality of the components as to how long they take to wear into each other.

Once you clean the top of the piston off, wipe the sides of the piston with some DA and a paper towel, put a few drops of oil on it and gently try to push the piston into the sleeve from the bottom. It needs to be oriented how it would be in the engine, there is usually a front and back to the piston/con-rod. I think the oil hole in the bottom of the con-rod usually faces towards the front of the engine. Anyway, put the piston in the sleeve correctly, make sure it's oiled/not dry, then try sliding it up the sleeve. If you reach the top of the sleeve, it's worn out. If it comes out of the top of the sleeve at all, it's worn out. Don't try hammering it in, just push it fairly hard. If it has pinch left, it won't be easy to push it to the top of the sleeve.

This is a couple pistons/sleeves that have lost their pinch, the bottom 2:

This is how far I could push them into the sleeve after having them re-pinched:

With the right tools, the sleeve can be compressed to get some more life out of it. Usually costs $25, but since you got a new one for $35, I'd just use that if this one is wore out. I get mine re-pinched by rayaracing.com. I just ask for a medium pinch since I use pull-starts. If you don't ask, he does a race pinch which is super tight and requires a bump start box to start.

Stay away from those k/n or paper type filters. They look cool, but they don't keep out the really small/fine dust particles that will kill a 30,000 RPM engine. The HPI big filters are fine, motor savers, OS Engines, traxxas revo big filter are all fine.

The tool marks on the neck of the sleeve and bottom of the flange may pose a problem with air leaks. That's why you don't want to pry the sleeve out that way. I understand it wouldn't come out, but if it's scratched up where the bottom of the lip on the sleeve seats in the crank case, it will more than likely leak, especially once it warms up, which will cause you a lot of headaches.

I think I covered most of your questions.

 

[PatrickRay]

These engines build compression due to the sleeve being tapered ever so slightly at the top. The taper usually starts above the exhaust port and it "pinches" the piston. It's termed as "pinch" in RC. When the engine heats up, the sleeve expands which alleviates the binding of the pinch but still retains a close enough mechanical fit to seal and create compression. This is why you will see people saying not to turn an engine over unless your trying to start it. When cold, the piston/sleeve essentially grind on each other.

As the engines wear out, the piston wears down and when at running temp, the pinch is too wide/weak to retain compression and you get blow by which causes compression loss, bad running, flaming out/stalling.

The break-in process mates the piston to the sleeve and the pinch is usually really tight when new, which is why you have to run it kind of rich and take it easy for the first 5-10 tanks as the engine wears itself in. Some take even longer to stabilize/wear in. I've had some be broken in at 1/2 gallon, others at 1 and 1/2 gallons. Just depends on the quality of the components as to how long they take to wear into each other.

Once you clean the top of the piston off, wipe the sides of the piston with some DA and a paper towel, put a few drops of oil on it and gently try to push the piston into the sleeve from the bottom. It needs to be oriented how it would be in the engine, there is usually a front and back to the piston/con-rod. I think the oil hole in the bottom of the con-rod usually faces towards the front of the engine. Anyway, put the piston in the sleeve correctly, make sure it's oiled/not dry, then try sliding it up the sleeve. If you reach the top of the sleeve, it's worn out. If it comes out of the top of the sleeve at all, it's worn out. Don't try hammering it in, just push it fairly hard. If it has pinch left, it won't be easy to push it to the top of the sleeve.

This is a couple pistons/sleeves that have lost their pinch, the bottom 2:

This is how far I could push them into the sleeve after having them re-pinched:

With the right tools, the sleeve can be compressed to get some more life out of it. Usually costs $25, but since you got a new one for $35, I'd just use that if this one is wore out. I get mine re-pinched by rayaracing.com. I just ask for a medium pinch since I use pull-starts. If you don't ask, he does a race pinch which is super tight and requires a bump start box to start.

Stay away from those k/n or paper type filters. They look cool, but they don't keep out the really small/fine dust particles that will kill a 30,000 RPM engine. The HPI big filters are fine, motor savers, OS Engines, traxxas revo big filter are all fine.

The tool marks on the neck of the sleeve and bottom of the flange may pose a problem with air leaks. That's why you don't want to pry the sleeve out that way. I understand it wouldn't come out, but if it's scratched up where the bottom of the lip on the sleeve seats in the crank case, it will more than likely leak, especially once it warms up, which will cause you a lot of headaches.

I think I covered most of your questions.

Thanks a lot for your response. You have been a huge help so far. So I finally got everything apart and cleaned decently. I don't know if you guys know this but these parts were actually silver at some point in time. Crazy right.

I am going to get the motor saver filter when funds come in so no worries there now. Is the reasoning for that because they just suck so much air down that those filters can't keep up?

As far as my piston, I still have half of my pinch left compared to yours. Should I just keep this one as a back up then and use the new one? And if I do that, I take it that means I'll have to break the engine in again since those two parts would be new right? Here a picture and also pictures of the inside of the engine

 

[Jam Racing 1]

If I were you I would use the new parts in the and yes you will have to follow the break in procedure again, but if you use patience and do it right you will get several gallons of fuel thru that engine again...

do yourself a favor and seal up that engine and when you do break in do it heat cycle method, your engine will thank you.....

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/threads/nitro-engine-sealing.15150/ << sealing thread

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/threads/how-to-heat-cycle-your-engine-for-newbies-pros.6972/ <<< how to heat cycle

Good Luck and as always the guys here will help you as much as possible.....

 

[PatrickRay]

Also, this is the current slipper next to what I assume is a new one. The current is 49tooth and the new is 52 tooth. Is that a big deal? What does that change?

 

[olds97_lss]

Try running the old one, see how it does. Just make sure to seal the engine up with RTV. If it fights with you a lot, put in the new piston/sleeve. I didn't catch if you said the new piston/sleeve came with a new con-rod or not, but whenever you change the piston/sleeve, it's a good idea to replace the con-rod too. They get slop in them over time and using an old tired rod to break in a new piston/sleeve could prove to be catastrophic.

The amount of air, lack of compression rings and shear RPM makes these little engines more prone to wear/damage from dust/small particles of dirt than a normal engine. The K/N or paper type filters just don't do a good job keeping the really fine stuff out. The dual stage foam filters with sticky filter oil on them does the best job.

If the original was 49, you may want to stay with that. Larger spur is slower but more torque.

 

[PatrickRay]

Try running the old one, see how it does. Just make sure to seal the engine up with RTV. If it fights with you a lot, put in the new piston/sleeve. I didn't catch if you said the new piston/sleeve came with a new con-rod or not, but whenever you change the piston/sleeve, it's a good idea to replace the con-rod too. They get slop in them over time and using an old tired rod to break in a new piston/sleeve could prove to be catastrophic.

The amount of air, lack of compression rings and shear RPM makes these little engines more prone to wear/damage from dust/small particles of dirt than a normal engine. The K/N or paper type filters just don't do a good job keeping the really fine stuff out. The dual stage foam filters with sticky filter oil on them does the best job.

If the original was 49, you may want to stay with that. Larger spur is slower but more torque.

No this piston/sleeve did not come with a con rod. All the ones I was seeing with it included were over 100 bucks so later on I'll buy a conrod to go with the new sleeve.

So I've got the original original spur gear in front of me ( I assume it's original because it's metal and purple opposed to plastic.) I am assuming you can use these until the pad wear down to the plastic right? Because if so I can switch to this metal one and just take a little sand paper to it to make it not shiny.

Obviously this guy didn't care for his truck so I have some spares of some things. He really really didn't like spur gears though

This is the clutch bell if it helps decide

 

[PatrickRay]

Inside of clutch bell. I need to take sandpaper to this too?

 

[PatrickRay]

Inside of clutch bell. I need to take sandpaper to this too?View attachment 5276

 

[Jam Racing 1]

Yes I would remove the bearings from the bell, clean it with some carb cleaner and lightly sand the inside of it to remove glazing....
If the shoes are worn I would replace them also. worn shoes will heat the bell and cause all kinds of troubles, I put my bearings in a small jar and soak then in denatured alcohol for the night then clean them by spinning them on a pencil or something to hold them with...afterward I oil them with a mixture of 50/50 lucas oil additive and regular automatic trans fluid.... don't over oil them a little bit goes a long ways.....

As for the spur I prefer to use a steel gear over plastic any day.... you can lightly sand the slipper pad but in truth I find just replacing them a bit better....

 

[olds97_lss]

Yeah, you can rough up the current slipper pad. Just use light pressure and fine sand paper if you have it. The friction material is soft and grinds away easily. Tighten the slipper nut down until the spring is compressed, then back it off 1/4 turn. Make sure to put locktight on the slipper nut threads. They like to back off. Clean the bell first, then and sand the inside where the shoes run as @Jam Racing 1 suggests. If you don't have carb cleaner, use denatured alcohol. I use DA for cleaning everything. I just put it in a big spray bottle and keep it on my bench. Carb cleaner is too hard on my hands and stinks too much to spray in the house. 🙂

 

[PatrickRay]

Yeah, you can rough up the current slipper pad. Just use light pressure and fine sand paper if you have it. The friction material is soft and grinds away easily. Tighten the slipper nut down until the spring is compressed, then back it off 1/4 turn. Make sure to put locktight on the slipper nut threads. They like to back off. Clean the bell first, then and sand the inside where the shoes run as @Jam Racing 1 suggests. If you don't have carb cleaner, use denatured alcohol. I use DA for cleaning everything. I just put it in a big spray bottle and keep it on my bench. Carb cleaner is too hard on my hands and stinks too much to spray in the house. 🙂

Well guys here's what I have accomplished so far. I put the engine back together and sealed it, and then put everything else back on too.

This has a hi-torque throttle servo on it, and isn't like the stock one that should be on it. So I had to make a few modifications to the electronics housing lid so that I could still close it.


Before, there was a divider that wouldn't let me close the lid.

After I got everything put back on I put batteries in everything and got the servos working and properly adjusted, so when I let off the throttle it goes to idle and full throttle takes me to full throttle. I'll have to mess with the break after I start running it.

Next thing to do is try to get it to run I suppose, but I won't be able to do that till Tuesday evening.

 

[Nickshook81]

Well guys here's what I have accomplished so far. I put the engine back together and sealed it, and then put everything else back on too.

This has a hi-torque throttle servo on it, and isn't like the stock one that should be on it. So I had to make a few modifications to the electronics housing lid so that I could still close it.
View attachment 5291

Before, there was a divider that wouldn't let me close the lid.

After I got everything put back on I put batteries in everything and got the servos working and properly adjusted, so when I let off the throttle it goes to idle and full throttle takes me to full throttle. I'll have to mess with the break after I start running it.

Next thing to do is try to get it to run I suppose, but I won't be able to do that till Tuesday evening.

Nice progress so far, Its making me want to dig out my old savage and get her going. I was waiting for my son to get a bit older so we could do it together. I have a brand new motor still in its packaging .

 

[olds97_lss]

Well guys here's what I have accomplished so far. I put the engine back together and sealed it, and then put everything else back on too.

This has a hi-torque throttle servo on it, and isn't like the stock one that should be on it. So I had to make a few modifications to the electronics housing lid so that I could still close it.
View attachment 5291

Before, there was a divider that wouldn't let me close the lid.

After I got everything put back on I put batteries in everything and got the servos working and properly adjusted, so when I let off the throttle it goes to idle and full throttle takes me to full throttle. I'll have to mess with the break after I start running it.

Next thing to do is try to get it to run I suppose, but I won't be able to do that till Tuesday evening.

You might want to rethink the linkage.

The brake and throttle should be able to slide on the servo, not be solid mounted. When you brake, your essentially going to be bending the throttle wire because the carb won't close any further. They brake has a lot of play, but I still have mine setup to slide with fuel line as the cushion so it isn't like a light switch for brakes.

 

[PatrickRay]

You might want to rethink the linkage.

The brake and throttle should be able to slide on the servo, not be solid mounted. When you brake, your essentially going to be bending the throttle wire because the carb won't close any further. They brake has a lot of play, but I still have mine setup to slide with fuel line as the cushion so it isn't like a light switch for brakes.

Okay. I only have one extra clamp so I'll have to get another and some springs then. Thanks

 

[PatrickRay]

Newest update,

Finally got the air filter in the mail, installed it, put a new glow plugs in and reset the carb to factory, tried to start it and.....nothing.

I'm pretty sure it's the glow plugs warmer being dead that's the issue. I charged it when I first got it but it sat for a week or so. I'm charging it now and will try again soon

 

[PatrickRay]

You might want to rethink the linkage.

The brake and throttle should be able to slide on the servo, not be solid mounted. When you brake, your essentially going to be bending the throttle wire because the carb won't close any further. They brake has a lot of play, but I still have mine setup to slide with fuel line as the cushion so it isn't like a light switch for brakes.

So I'm trying to start it. The glow plug charger is charged, the plug is good and is getting hot, but I can't seem to get it started.

I primed it and everything. About how long should it take for it to catch?

 

[Jam Racing 1]

If everything is close it should fire after a couple turns, if it is not firing then you have something wrong, so go back and check idle gap, and the needle settings...

 

[PatrickRay]

If everything is close it should fire after a couple turns, if it is not firing then you have something wrong, so go back and check idle gap, and the needle settings...

I put all needles back to factory. The idle gap was just a sliver

 

[Jam Racing 1]

Idle gap needs to be 1mm , use a paper clip or something similar and set the idle gap correctly using the idle screw, it should return to idle every time with no issues, do you have the manual ? it details what and how to do this.....

 

[PatrickRay]

Idle gap needs to be 1mm , use a paper clip or something similar and set the idle gap correctly using the idle screw, it should return to idle every time with no issues, do you have the manual ? it details what and how to do this.....

Yes. It is set correctly

 

[PatrickRay]

Yes. It is set correctly

Took the high speed needle off to make sure it wasn't jammed. Put it back on and got a couple pops when I tried to start it this time. Need to recharge the warmer for a bit and I'll try again. I might richen the hsn by an hour too

 

[Jam Racing 1]

Yes. It is set correctly

Well something has got to be wrong, my engines start up first crack so either the idle gap is wrong or it is too rich or lean somewhere.... is there fuel coming out the pipe? is it even firing at all? going to need more info before you can be helped, is that the same piston/sleeve set you have in the above posts or did you install new stuff?
See where I am going here?? I am not there and therefore you need to post more info to get past these issues.....

 

[olds97_lss]

Took the high speed needle off to make sure it wasn't jammed. Put it back on and got a couple pops when I tried to start it this time. Need to recharge the warmer for a bit and I'll try again. I might richen the hsn by an hour too

What kind of warmer are you using? I use an AA sized warmer that I use a 2100mah NiMH AA in. One of those can usually get me through an entire days worth (and more) of starting without issue.

 

[PatrickRay]

What kind of warmer are you using? I use an AA sized warmer that I use a 2100mah NiMH AA in. One of those can usually get me through an entire days worth (and more) of starting without issue.

It'll probably be alright once it's fully charged. I'm going to leave it be for a little while and try again

 

[Jam Racing 1]

View attachment 5314

It'll probably be alright once it's fully charged. I'm going to leave it be for a little while and try again

You need to let that igniter charge overnight to get full voltage in it, realize it is just 1 sub c battery and if it is not fully charged it will give you lousy results.....

 

[PatrickRay]

What kind of warmer are you using? I use an AA sized warmer that I use a 2100mah NiMH AA in. One of those can usually get me through an entire days worth (and more) of starting without issue.

I let the warmer charge overnight, went to start it and still nothing. I have a short video that it won't let me post because it's too long. I preheated the engine with a hair dryer. The needles are at factory. It has a full tank of fresh fuel.

When you are priming it how long does it usually take for fuel to reach the engine?

 

[olds97_lss]

I lost track, are you using a roto starter or pull start?

You can post on youtube then share the link here. I think if it's under 8 minutes, it's allowed for free on youtube.

I use associated primer bulbs on all my nitro trucks. I prime it until I see the fuel reach the carb and hear the "squish" sound it makes. Some people say those leak, but I put zipties on both ends of the blue and on the fuel line and they seem to have worked fine for me for many years. Makes for fuss free priming and also gives you more roof run time when you roll over. You can hear that squish sound when turning it over when fuel is in the carb. Otherewise, I'd plug the exhaust tip with one hand and pull the starter a few times until I saw fuel get to the carb, then pull over slowly until I heard the squish. Hard to explain... 20 years of nitro, I do more by sound than anything anymore. lol! I do most of my tuning by sound more than by temp as well. I check for temp, but you can hear an engine that's too lean or rich when running.

FWIW, that NiMH heater you have is pretty low on MAH. 1800 isn't much for a sub-c heater. Still, when fully charged, should be plenty to get you through a bash day unless it's a bad cell. I guess it's kind of normal, I just never had a "normal" heater. The tried and true "hot shot" is a 1500mah NiCad. I always used one that used sub-c's, c's or AA's that I put my own cells in.

Used this one for years:
https://www.rcplanet.com/field-equipment/glow-starters/duratrax-ultra-slim-aa-glow-starter-dtxp0320

Then it stopped holding on to the plugs after a few years, so I found a cheap AA one like yours on ebay that had the spring thing instead. I use off the shelf energizer recharge 2050mah AA cells.

 

[PatrickRay]

I lost track, are you using a roto starter or pull start?

You can post on youtube then share the link here. I think if it's under 8 minutes, it's allowed for free on youtube.

I use associated primer bulbs on all my nitro trucks. I prime it until I see the fuel reach the carb and hear the "squish" sound it makes. Some people say those leak, but I put zipties on both ends of the blue and on the fuel line and they seem to have worked fine for me for many years. Makes for fuss free priming and also gives you more roof run time when you roll over. You can hear that squish sound when turning it over when fuel is in the carb. Otherewise, I'd plug the exhaust tip with one hand and pull the starter a few times until I saw fuel get to the carb, then pull over slowly until I heard the squish. Hard to explain... 20 years of nitro, I do more by sound than anything anymore. lol! I do most of my tuning by sound more than by temp as well. I check for temp, but you can hear an engine that's too lean or rich when running.

FWIW, that NiMH heater you have is pretty low on MAH. 1800 isn't much for a sub-c heater. Still, when fully charged, should be plenty to get you through a bash day unless it's a bad cell. I guess it's kind of normal, I just never had a "normal" heater. The tried and true "hot shot" is a 1500mah NiCad. I always used one that used sub-c's, c's or AA's that I put my own cells in.

Used this one for years:
https://www.rcplanet.com/field-equipment/glow-starters/duratrax-ultra-slim-aa-glow-starter-dtxp0320

Then it stopped holding on to the plugs after a few years, so I found a cheap AA one like yours on ebay that had the spring thing instead. I use off the shelf energizer recharge 2050mah AA cells.

I am using a roto start. Read that as my drill with the clutch turned low. I ordered a new warmer that's 2800 MaH so that's alright now.

I have good news. I actually got it to start. Two different times. It didn't stay running for long but still. The second time i got it, I went to turn down the idle just a tad because the wheels were turning fast. Ended up going too far and it shut off. Silly me forgot that it was still up on the block so there was no friction on the wheels but that's alright. Lessen learned no harm done.
Went to start it again today but now the one way bearing is slipping and anytime the engine tries to kick over it's too much for the bearing. I looked through the manual and didn't find any part numbers for it. I'm trying to find one on prime so I can have it delivered on prime. Do you know what the dimensions for that bearing are?

Thanks a lot

 

[PatrickRay]

I lost track, are you using a roto starter or pull start?

You can post on youtube then share the link here. I think if it's under 8 minutes, it's allowed for free on youtube.

I use associated primer bulbs on all my nitro trucks. I prime it until I see the fuel reach the carb and hear the "squish" sound it makes. Some people say those leak, but I put zipties on both ends of the blue and on the fuel line and they seem to have worked fine for me for many years. Makes for fuss free priming and also gives you more roof run time when you roll over. You can hear that squish sound when turning it over when fuel is in the carb. Otherewise, I'd plug the exhaust tip with one hand and pull the starter a few times until I saw fuel get to the carb, then pull over slowly until I heard the squish. Hard to explain... 20 years of nitro, I do more by sound than anything anymore. lol! I do most of my tuning by sound more than by temp as well. I check for temp, but you can hear an engine that's too lean or rich when running.

FWIW, that NiMH heater you have is pretty low on MAH. 1800 isn't much for a sub-c heater. Still, when fully charged, should be plenty to get you through a bash day unless it's a bad cell. I guess it's kind of normal, I just never had a "normal" heater. The tried and true "hot shot" is a 1500mah NiCad. I always used one that used sub-c's, c's or AA's that I put my own cells in.

Used this one for years:
https://www.rcplanet.com/field-equipment/glow-starters/duratrax-ultra-slim-aa-glow-starter-dtxp0320

Then it stopped holding on to the plugs after a few years, so I found a cheap AA one like yours on ebay that had the spring thing instead. I use off the shelf energizer recharge 2050mah AA cells.

Hopefully those specs are 6mm x 12mm because that's what I ordered lol

So I figure if that bearing has been going, it's probably been making it a little harder to start the truck as well