How to tell if you have a blown motor!

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AoD

Well-Known Member
Messages
429
Location
Hammondsville, Ohio
Alright, another important thing to know with running your RC trucks around so much is how to tell if a motor is on it's last leg or not. Quite a few people in my local area who run RC cars and trucks have asked me this question. "How do I know if my motor is blown up, or getting ready to blow up?"

Well, this article will give you some quick tests to do to find out the answer to that question. And, I'll also add some information on what you can do after you find if you have a blown motor.

First, let's get to know our motors just a little. The way it works involves a heavy amount of physics. We won't go that far into detail in this guide, but we will see how it works.

Any piston driven engine works from compression. Most flammable substances such as fuels burn hotter and faster when compressed. This is the basis on how an engine works. Now, in your motor, there is a piston that goes up and down causing a crankshaft to turn.(which is attached to the piston by a connecting rod) The motion created is energy and the crankshaft turns the linear energy into rotational energy. This energy is transfered to a drivetrain which in turn, makes your wheels go around.

Now, when the piston moves up in the cylinder, it compresses the fuel. The fuel is then ignited by a spark plug (or a glow plug in an RC) which in turn pushes the piston downward. This is where the energy comes from. Now, the biggest factor is the compression. If the compression of the fuel is low, the fuel could only partially ignite, or not at all. So, compression means more to an engine then fuel or air. Without compression, an engine just wouldn't work.

Now that we know a little more about how the engine works, let's find out some ways to test the compression. First, no matter what you do, the most important thing is to keep dirt out of the engine. So, clean the motor as good as possible before ever taking out the glow plug. Make sure the motor is on the chassis for these two tests, and that there is fuel in the tank. If you do a dry compression test, you won't have any fuel assisting the piston and cylinder sealing as it would while running!

Now, for engines with pull starts, you have it really easy. The best way to check your motors compression is to just pull the cord. You must pull the cord slowly to test your compression. The motor should have some resistance, but slowly give a little. This shows that the motor has compression. The more it resists your pull, the more compression it has.

For electric starts, there is a little different method to testing compression. For this we must first take out the glow plug. Now, with the glow plug removed, (make sure you have a clean finger) cover the glow plug hole. Turn the motor over with your electric starter. A motor with good compression should actually blow your finger off of the hole. While a motor with a lower amount of compression may only push a little on your finger. Where a motor that has no compression will probably not even show any signs of pushing on your finger at all!

Now, if your motor shows no signs of compression, it's probably shot. Now, don't get in a scuffle over it, there's many new and exciting options opened up for you! New motors are always nice to have! Another cheaper alternative is a rebuild. Rebuilding an RC engine is a little difficult, but if you follow the right instructions, it can be done quickly and easily. Rebuilding one of these motors will also help you learn a lot more about how these motors work! I recommend rebuilding a motor for anyone who has that curiosity like I do. It's really a good way to learn a lot more about the dynamics of these engines!

One other way of testing your motor for serious compression loss. This method has always been looked at as a "bad" way of testing. But if you follow my directions, this will tell you exactly how bad your motor is. This works for both pull start and electric start motors, but requires the motor to be off of the model's chassis. Like before, make sure you clean that engine up before working on it.

See next post!
 
To perform this method you'll need five things.

1. A bottle of water
2. A glow plug wrench
3. A pair of high grip gloves
4. A can of WD-40 (Not an off brand, WD-40 ONLY!!!!!)
5. A good small flashlight

First, with clean motor remove the glow plug from the engine and place it aside. Now, be careful and use the flashlight to find top dead center. This is where the piston is at it's highest point of travel in the center. Turn the flywheel on the motor to move the piston up and down the cylinder. Now, from top dead center, drop the piston about one fourth of a stroke downwards. Make sure you don't go too far! These pistons don't travel very far, so a millimeter or so should about do it for most motors.

Second, take your bottle of water, and CAREFULLY pour it down into the glow plug hole. Fill it close to the top and quickly take your plug and put it back into your head.

Now, turn the cylinder the opposite what from which you dropped it, and see if it sticks. If it shows resistance, the motor still has compression, and therefore may be able to run. In this case, you may want to re-tune your engine later on. If it has very little or no resistance, you pretty much can be assures the engine is blown. Now, if you took more than 30 seconds or more to put the glowplug back in you may have lost the water down the cylinder and must try again. You won't have much time, but if you do it correctly, it is a sure way to test for any compression.

These motors can run with very low compression, so even a little compression is enough for the motor to run on. You must however remember, the less compression you have, the less power the motor is able to produce.

Now, within an hour or so of doing the water test you must follow these directions CAREFULLY. Remove the glow plug again, and fill both the carb inlet and cylinder with WD-40. Turn the flywheel around a few times to make the motor spin. Now, refill the cylinder again, and hold your finger over the glow plug hole. Shake the motor and turn it upside down over and over. Repeat the process at least 3 times. This will remove any water that may still be in the engine. Water can cause serious damage in your engine if not dealt with properly. WD-40 was designed as a water displacing lubricant, that is why it is the only stuff you should use for this test method.

Why would the water test work well? This question has been asked to me by everyone I've recommended it to. As the normal thought is, an engine plus water always equals disaster. This actually is an untrue statement. While water can destroy a hot motor, it actually can be dealt with quite easily. Now, the water has a similar consistency as the fuels we use. However, it doesn't have any lubricants added to it. The lubricants in the fuel may cause the cylinder to move more freely than the water will. Air can pass through the piston and cylinder much easier than the water as well. If compression can be held against the water, the engine can hold compression while running with the fuel. The idea is, the motor is turning so fast when it's running the lubricant's effect of easing the cylinders compression is limited when compared to non running conditions. So, a motor that is actually running will have more compression (because of the fuel/oil mix) then it would if you turned it over by hand.

I only recommend the water test for individuals who really don't have the money or will to replace or rebuild a motor. I use it as a last straw effort to see if there is any chance that a motor will still run. The first two methods work quite well, and will give you a good enough reading to tell if your motor still has compression.

Now, I must add, compression is not the only case where an engine can be blown. Something could have broke inside the engine, such as the crankshaft or connecting rod. So, make sure you know that something isn't broken before attempting these tests.


One final point that I must add. Back when I first replaced my motor on my RC10GT, I did some testing to prove some theories of mine. I had a motor from a stock RTR RC10GT model and these are the tests I did. (The motor was near death anyways)

First was to answer the question, Will a motor run on extremely low compression? Well, I took the head gasket and cut a nice hole in it to give me a really low compression. The resistance on the pull start was almost nothing. I did however get it to run! It ran, with a lack of power. It wouldn't idle for anything though. This kind of proved my theory, but left me with some confusion. After some research, I learned the fact that the motor will actually gain compression (to a small extent) when it's running at higher speeds. This is mainly due to the fuel causing more of a seal between the piston and cylinder.

Second, how detrimental is water when hitting an RC engine? Well, I know from experience, most diesel engines can actually take on water and still be savable, sometimes without major damage. So, I ran the motor for a while, then introduced some water directly into the air filter. The motor quickly died. I quickly filled the air filter with WD-40 and got the motor taking the lubricant in with repeating pulls over and over. I tested the glow plug, which was destroyed. I replaced the plug, added a new clean air filter and some fuel. I primed the motor and started pulling again. After about 15 pulls it started running again and in about 5 minutes it was running as good as it was before I added the water. Maybe these motors aren't as intolerant to water as I suspected? Maybe not!!!

And my third and final test. Something some people have said was true, and was just something I wanted to find out personally! Will a Nitro RC engine run from 87 octane gasoline? The answer is no. I couldn't get it started at all. I'm guessing the lower compression of the engine, with the lack of a real spark wouldn't let the gasoline ignite. Ohh well for that theory. I went ahead and ran 50% in the motor at a really lean setting to finally put an end to it's misery. It was a fun three tanks of fuel. :)

Any questions, please feel free to ask, as always. :)

AoD
 
Great information AoD

Another way which gets vary involved
1. pull the back plate off
2. Using a zip tie place in exhuast valve (assuming Header is off already)
3. Turn motor over by hand pushing the Sleeve up
4. Pull sleeve out Gentaly
5. Take piston and Rod off crank and slide out of motor
6. place piston into sleeve

If the piston slides with eas threw the sleeve it is basicly shot. If it has some resistance it is Ok. The piston should stop at the Top of the sleeve and this is where it should have the most resistant.
 
OMG, your fingers must be very tired after all that ! An intersting idea AoD, but I usually go out of my way to prevent water in the engine. If I was going to use this method, I would use something like denatured alcohol or something instead of water. Then warm up the engine when I'd finished with a hair dryer to dry it out.
Personally I just prefer to feel how tight the piston is in the sleeve by rotating the flywheel when the engine is still pretty hot. If done regularly, you get to know how it's wearing.
 
Nice post AoD! I gotta hand it to you, you're here to help. and that's awesome.

I'd just like to add a couple of things to help bolster what is above:

2-stroke motors indeed have more compression when running, but there are two very important additional reasons why.
1) Due to the inherent supercharging effect the tuned pipe has, it draws extra air into the motor beyond the motor's mechanical capacity, and since it's still being compressed into the same area as when its being rotated by hand, the comp. ratio automatically rises.
2) The piston expands when hot, thus sealing the cylinder better, also helping compression.

I must disagree to a point about water being harmful...Water as a substance will do NO immediate damage to a motor in very small quantities, however the danger is still twofold:
1) Water will not compress like air, or a proper air/fuel mixture. Thus, if enough water is introduced into the motor at once, it can "hydro-lock"...meaning the motor immediately locks up, since it cannot compress that water. Basically, it would be akin to putting a large rock in the chamber while the engine is running. On full-size motors, this can commonly bend pushrods, valves and even con-rods, among other delightful things.
2)Water can corrode a lot of internal engine parts that are normally protected by an oily film, it doesn't take as long as some think. (I like your WD-40 method, good thinking!) Also related to this, water makes a terrible lubricant. You can draw your own conclusoins from that!

As far as not running on gasoline, there is one major reason for that: It takes about twice the amount of alcohol fuel (methanol, nitromethane, etc.) than gasoline to achieve a proper air/fuel ratio. So, without some major mods to your carb, an R/C motor will try to use twice the amount of fuel than it actually needs. Theoretically you could convert an R/C nitro mill to gas, but even once you figured out the right A/F ratio and oil content, you would be way down on power...That's why our fuel has nitro in it.

Again, great post AoD. I'm not trying to step on your toes or steal your thunder or anything, but I felt the above info might complement yours well. :jamout:

-Greg
 
Again, great post AoD. I'm not trying to step on your toes or steal your thunder or anything, but I felt the above info might complement yours well. :jamout:

-Greg


No sweat man! That's what I want to see. The more people that add information the better! I just think of myself seven years ago wondering onto a forum like this and not finding any information on such things. This way, we have it readily available!

And as for water, correct, it doesn't cause any immediate harm to the engine, but left for a while can cause certain damage to vital parts.

As for the Denatured Alcohol, I thought all about that. The thing is, water seems to be about as close as you'll get to the same consistancy as our fuel, considering the oils that are in it, and what happens during the "burn" process of the motor. I had to come up with a solution between a milk like substance and actual fuel.

Here's how I came to the solution of water. I took a cup of the fuel I run, and burnt some of it in a protected environment (aka a powdercoating oven) I watched how the fuel actually changed during the process. Mind you the process is much quicker, and I can't exactly replicate it in an oven. I found the fuel thickens about 20% or so. Unran fuel has a real thin feel compared to burning fuel, and it seems the closer match I could find that wouldn't effectively hurt the motor short term would be water. Alcohol is more like the fuel in it's original state.

It was just an idea I had attempted, and it worked! Like I said though, I only would use it as a last ditch effort lol.

If you haven't noticed by now, when I try to figure out something, I usually go totally anal about it until I have a solution. heh

I wonder if a forced air induction system would work for running gasoline in one of these motors by the way.. I might have to test that! Run a vacuum feed backwards forcing air into the cylinder, I'd probably have to remove the pipe to cancel any vortexing effects I'd get from it. To bad I don't have a "near death" motor now lol



ANYWAYS! Thanks for the great input guys! I love it! Just the notion that a new guy to the RC arena has a chance to see this stuff makes the 10 minutes of typing more than worth it to me! :)
 
Thanks for the ifo!

Something I wanted to throw in about running on gasilone, I remembered reading that the combustion had, in part, to do with the platinum in the glow plug and the methanol in the nitro fuel. I think I have a link.

here it is, this is a copy/paste from this page

http://www.rchobbies.org/cars_eng-tuning.htm

A combination of compression, heat and a catalytic reaction between the platinum in the glow-plug coil and the methanol in the fuel creates combustion in a nitro engine. Altering the heat range of your glow plug can alter the timing of the combustion process. Nitro engines don’t have an ignition system that can be used to advance or retard combustion timing, but a hotter plug that causes ignition a little earlier in the combustion process can have the same effect. “Advancing†the ignition timing can increase overall power output, especially at higher rpm. There are limits, however, and installing too hot a plug causes pre-ignition (detonation) and risks damaging your engine.

I used to be able to type fast but I am down to only being able to use 2 fingers to type now and its hard, used to watch the screen, now I have to watch the keyboard...
 
great info buddy!!! this forum keeps getting better and better keep up the good work guys!!!
 
Wow .. you have mad typing skills ... Thanks


I lack any cool skills that the girls like, like.. ninja skills, computer hacking skills... nunchuck skills.

LOL! I type around 90-110WPM on average, but after work it's usually down to around 60. I do a ton of work on my PC, and have been for well over 15 years now. I started building my own PC's back in.. well I can't remember. I remember the machine though! Pentium 100mhz with 16mb of ram!!!! It was blazing fast! Now I'm running a dual core 3.0ghz.. Makes you sit back and realize how fast technology really changes.
 
Thanks AoD, you've been throwing out alot of good info.

I got a Hot Bodies buggy a little while back (used) and there was very little resistance on the pull start, so I figured it had low compression but I thought I could still get it to run. It would start but only if I gave some throttle. Once it was running it would stay running fine that is until I let go of the throttle then died everytime.

First was to answer the question, Will a motor run on extremely low compression? Well, I took the head gasket and cut a nice hole in it to give me a really low compression. The resistance on the pull start was almost nothing. I did however get it to run! It ran, with a lack of power. It wouldn't idle for anything though. This kind of proved my theory, but left me with some confusion. After some research, I learned the fact that the motor will actually gain compression (to a small extent) when it's running at higher speeds. This is mainly due to the fuel causing more of a seal between the piston and cylinder

Well at least now I can stop messing with the idle screw.... :duh:

Thanks again
Tobias
 
Good info. I have a question tho i have an axial that run well for about 5 mins and then its very difficult to start,is that a sign of compression loss?
 
Well that seems more like a heat problem, or a tuning problem.

If it will start, then you have enough compression to run, and if it runs good and strong, it's usually alright. Now, here's a couple things to check for.

1 - Does the motor seem "tighter" after it's totally warmed up? Looser?
2 - What changes after the motor is warm?
3 - Does additional tuning seem to help the problem at all?
4 - Will it idle after it's warm?

There's many things that could actually cause that problem. It doesn't necessarily mean your motor is suffering from compression loss. You can still do the easy tests that I have listed here to check. I'd say though, that it most likely has to do with the tuning of the carb instead of other things. But you never know, I have seen a motor stop idling and have troubles starting because of a bad glow plug. When in doubt, try a new plug, if that doesn't work, it's time to look at other possibilities. :)
 
Good info. I have a question tho i have an axial that run well for about 5 mins and then its very difficult to start,is that a sign of compression loss?

Mine did the same-started fine and after 5 mins died and was hard to restart-here's what I found :duh:

2hmiukl.jpg



Dave
 
thanks for the input i will look at it, i remember the last time it had some fuel on the bellows, so that would fit with your carb as the prob.thanks again
 
thnx very much to all who summited info to this thread!
my engine is new, not yet broke-in. one day i will need this info, and for that i am greatfull.
i am new to nitro and rc and with all the info being shared here i feel i have a lifetime of knowledge already..

thnx
 
That's what makes it worthwhile nghtrdr! The more you know, the better it is when you do break that motor in! :)
 
i was out running my savage .32 testing a buddy's kicker on his ramp pulling back flip after backflip
i wound up busting a tierod so i fired up by backup stock savage and kept doing the same thing untill the motor boged halfway through the backflip all i heard was a loud thunk this is what i found and is another way to tell if your motor is bad

IMAG0007.jpg

IMAG0008.jpg

IMAG0006.jpg

IMAG0002-2.jpg
 
Dang man, that for sure is a blown motor now. I can't believe that. Must have taken a hard hit! Never seen a block in two pieces like that before!

I guess it's time for a LRP or OS eh? :)
 
Wheeling - You win the award for the most naturally busted up engine I have ever seen... on any scale.

Were you trying to run that engine on threadlocker instead of nitro? hee-hee

*
 
if you look carefully the block is in 3 pieces part with the cooling head part with the carb and the rest with the pullcord
as for the new motor ya i need one but not cause of this i still have a savy with a 32 and 3 speed a savay with a brand new axial 28 a flm savay that needs a motor and a 1/8th scale buggy with a stock savage 21 motor
 
That is some great carnage! I love to see the Savage suffer like that... Now get it fixed!
 

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