Carbon Fibre vs Aluminum

[kvnnets]

This might be interesting to some of you.

Thermal resistance: carbon fibre does degrade quicker as temperature gets hotter.
Water absorption: unless it's a really top quality carbon with good sealant resin, CF will absorb water and degrade in performance.
Contamination by chemicals: see below.
Oxidation: carbon fibre oxidise and looses strength as it oxidise. The oxidation level is quite low at room temperature but increases with temperature and also chemical contaminant
Durability. as seen above CF will not have durability in time as you have with Aluminium. So be mindful as your product will not be as good in 10 years with CF as it is in Aluminium.
Also failure mode with CF is much more difficult to predict, analyse and failure are not a controlled as Aluminium. CF will shatter when crack initiate from a minimal defect or chip.
CF tends to be more expensive than aluminum, but has some radar reflective (actually absorption) properties. CF has has good tensile strength but is not as flexible as aluminum...tends to crack under strain more than aluminum.

 

[Shaun]

interesting info.. great find...

 

[MikeK1981]

Good info! I think I'm going to get the carbon servo plate from PRC but I can't go aluminum anyway cause the FLM won't fit the OFNA 250cc tank so I don't have much choice unless I want to use a different tank.

 

[Larsenracing]

I'm ganna have to disagree for the most part. Not sure where you are getting your info from. Obviously CF will absorb water more than that of Aluminum as its a cloth however it is impregnated via Resin which seals it up fairly well. There are also lots of different grades of CF where most use cheap stuff that does not have very good characteristics and other's are much better. The CF will not handle the heat as much as Aluminum will but it will with stand more than 325*F, not sure where an R/C car will see those temps.

On the Oxidization, I have never seen CF oxidize. CF is more Expensive as Aluminum is much more readily available and easy to work with.

As for durability the thin aluminums on these trucks will fatigue/crack easier than any Quality CF. As far as strength the CF is much more rigid that aluminum and will crack if pushed to far where aluminum will fail far before via bending if working with the same shape.

Both have great properties and work great for the R/C enthusiast.

I have only ever had to replace 1 part due to warranty issues which was an wing mount plate for an E-Savage PRC182. This piece failed because it was being jumped time after time reaching 20' air. I replaced part for the cost of most of shipping.

 

[kvnnets]

I'm ganna have to disagree for the most part. Not sure where you are getting your info from. Obviously CF will absorb water more than that of Aluminum as its a cloth however it is impregnated via Resin which seals it up fairly well. There are also lots of different grades of CF where most use cheap stuff that does not have very good characteristics and other's are much better. The CF will not handle the heat as much as Aluminum will but it will with stand more than 325*F, not sure where an R/C car will see those temps.

On the Oxidization, I have never seen CF oxidize. CF is more Expensive as Aluminum is much more readily available and easy to work with.

As for durability the thin aluminums on these trucks will fatigue/crack easier than any Quality CF. As far as strength the CF is much more rigid that aluminum and will crack if pushed to far where aluminum will fail far before via bending if working with the same shape.

Both have great properties and work great for the R/C enthusiast.

I have only ever had to replace 1 part due to warranty issues which was an wing mount plate for an E-Savage PRC182. This piece failed because it was being jumped time after time reaching 20' air. I replaced part for the cost of most of shipping.

I got it off some engineering site. Thought it would make a good discussion.

 

[frddyj]

This might be interesting to some of you.

Thermal resistance: carbon fibre does degrade quicker as temperature gets hotter.
Water absorption: unless it's a really top quality carbon with good sealant resin, CF will absorb water and degrade in performance.
Contamination by chemicals: see below.
Oxidation: carbon fibre oxidise and looses strength as it oxidise. The oxidation level is quite low at room temperature but increases with temperature and also chemical contaminant
Durability. as seen above CF will not have durability in time as you have with Aluminium. So be mindful as your product will not be as good in 10 years with CF as it is in Aluminium.
Also failure mode with CF is much more difficult to predict, analyse and failure are not a controlled as Aluminium. CF will shatter when crack initiate from a minimal defect or chip.
CF tends to be more expensive than aluminum, but has some radar reflective (actually absorption) properties. CF has has good tensile strength but is not as flexible as aluminum...tends to crack under strain more than aluminum.

Kevin, please footnote & link the place where you got this information; without it, it just sounds like a random opinion caz it doesnt say who wrote it, what types of testing they did, what chemicals were used to "oxidize the c/f" or any types of testing for 'failures.'

"So be mindful as your product will not be as good in 10 years with CF as it is in Aluminium." was a 10 year test conducted to prove this theory.

don't take this as a poke, i just want to see how the person who wrote it backs up these claims, or, based on my minimal experiences with carbon fiber i gotta call :bsflag:

 

[kvnnets]

Kevin, please footnote & link the place where you got this information; without it, it just sounds like a random opinion caz it doesnt say who wrote it, what types of testing they did, what chemicals were used to "oxidize the c/f" or any types of testing for 'failures.'

"So be mindful as your product will not be as good in 10 years with CF as it is in Aluminium." was a 10 year test conducted to prove this theory.

don't take this as a poke, i just want to see how the person who wrote it backs up these claims, or, based on my minimal experiences with carbon fiber i gotta call :bsflag:

Here you go frddy.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071127131614AAgKslu

Not sure how true it is but it is a good discussion and everyone gets to put in there 0.02

I don't agree or disagree, Just wonder what everyone will say about it.

 

[Bankrupter]

I'm not a fan of plain old carbon fiber, Quasi isotropic I will say is ten to one alloy. (I have both) I have already failed FLM products doing what my carbon truck does with ease. So as far as real world RC application tests go with PRC's carbon in my hands FLM 0 - PRC 20. I have also done all the same jumps the flm failed with landing on all 4 wheels... On the nose, lid, tail, etc with the PRC. no failures!

Strong as steel light as plastic.. 14 pound savage/ 9 pound savage.

Ten years? well none of my savage will be running in 10 years lol.

 

[kvnnets]

I'm not a fan of plain old carbon fiber, Quasi isotropic I will say is ten to one alloy. (I have both) I have already failed FLM products doing what my carbon truck does with ease. So as far as real world RC application tests go with PRC's carbon in my hands FLM 0 - PRC 20. I have also done all the same jumps the flm failed with landing on all 4 wheels... On the nose, lid, tail, etc with the PRC. no failures!

Strong as steel light as plastic.. 14 pound savage/ 9 pound savage.

Ten years? well none of my savage will be running in 10 years lol.

So I guess that the Carbon fibre typ is the way to go. I have not run either so it's good to know through peoples testing what the outcome is. It's always better to get real peoples opinions. I want to do a mid tank setup in the fall. Does your truck have CF mid tank setup?

 

[Pope]

Yahoo answers is not a very good sorce of info be carefull with what you read there.

 

[Bankrupter]

So I guess that the Carbon fibre typ is the way to go. I have not run either so it's good to know through peoples testing what the outcome is. It's always better to get real peoples opinions. I want to do a mid tank setup in the fall. Does your truck have CF mid tank setup?

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11426 This is my PRC build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWG5cq5uPU
2 jumps from Sat. quick vid... It will do this all day. This is the jump that broke FLM stuff landing on the tires. o yea and a revo...

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11387 My extream build well tvped truck its not a build by anymeans

 

[kvnnets]

Yahoo answers is not a very good sorce of info be carefull with what you read there.

Yeah, I know but when you search for this topic on google it comes up with lots about bike frames with this type of material.

This was one of the only non bike frame sites that I saw.

Or maybe I just did not search it right.

 

[Pope]

Yeah, I know but when you search for this topic on google it comes up with lots about bike frames with this type of material.

This was one of the only non bike frame sites that I saw.

Or maybe I just did not search it right.

www.dragonplate.com they should have some answers for you they make the kind of stuff we use.

 

[kvnnets]

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11426 This is my PRC build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWG5cq5uPU
2 jumps from Sat. quick vid... It will do this all day. This is the jump that broke FLM stuff landing on the tires. o yea and a revo...

https://www.hpisavageforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11387 My extream build well tvped truck its not a build by anymeans

First off I think that is one of the quickst nitros I have ever seen. I think you sold me on CF tvps. They are a little more but they do seem to hold up to a beating. With jumps like that and not a single crack. WOW.

Thanks for those links Bank

 

[kvnnets]

www.dragonplate.com they should have some answers for you they make the kind of stuff we use.

Thanks for the link Pope. I will look further into it. Maybe I can come up with a CF roll cage on my next project.

 

[Pope]

Glad I could help. When it comes to RV questions this is the best place to ask. As my poll shows google sends a lot of people to us

 

[Bankrupter]

First off I think that is one of the quickst nitros I have ever seen. I think you sold me on CF tvps. They are a little more but they do seem to hold up to a beating. With jumps like that and not a single crack. WOW.

Thanks for those links Bank

thats all 3rd gear too.. no first or 2nd in that tranny. Thank purenitro for that. its a drag mod picco. I have gone full nose into the ground, lid you name it off that jump they hold up very well. the 2nd truck is NOT quasi fiber... Ive only bash it a few times. I don't fully recomend it like i do PRC

 

[kvnnets]

thats all 3rd gear too.. no first or 2nd in that tranny. Thank purenitro for that. its a drag mod picco. I have gone full nose into the ground, lid you name it off that jump they hold up very well. the 2nd truck is NOT quasi fiber... Ive only bash it a few times. I don't fully recomend it like i do PRC

Pure Nirto? Are they like Extreme Mods?

 

[frddyj]

Here you go frddy.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071127131614AAgKslu

Not sure how true it is but it is a good discussion and everyone gets to put in there 0.02

I don't agree or disagree, Just wonder what everyone will say about it.

ya, I'm always up for learning something new & you must have come across it by searching for information comparing metals vs. c/f.

now i can see that some peeps commenting worked for military contractors & different applications other than r/c, so those types of applications, climates, etc might have a impact on materials & metals, i just wish they backed up theyre claims with some types of testing to give it credibility.

i will say this as far as testing: ive seen bankrupter's carbon fiber trucks take some jumps & impacts & remain undamaged where metal parts (like motor plates) have broken.

i think your right tho, this thread is a pretty good discussion. maybe we can find some comparisons & testing. i will have a look at work tomm.

also, i have a full flm nitro savage & am in the process of a full carbon-fiber flux so we shall see how it goes under the brushless-power!

 

[kvnnets]

ya, I'm always up for learning something new & you must have come across it by searching for information comparing metals vs. c/f.

now i can see that some peeps commenting worked for military contractors & different applications other than r/c, so those types of applications, climates, etc might have a impact on materials & metals, i just wish they backed up theyre claims with some types of testing to give it credibility.

i will say this as far as testing: ive seen bankrupter's carbon fiber trucks take some jumps & impacts & remain undamaged where metal parts (like motor plates) have broken.

i think your right tho, this thread is a pretty good discussion. maybe we can find some comparisons & testing. i will have a look at work tomm.

also, i have a full flm nitro savage & am in the process of a full carbon-fiber flux so we shall see how it goes under the brushless-power!

That's a great idea frddyj. It might help us noobs make an educated decision when trying to upgrade their truck. I know this forum has helped me with my rc.

Maybe we can get people to share their experinces with both materials.

 

[inb4lock]

The information in the original post is pretty accurate, but not the whole story.

Thermal resistance: carbon fibre does degrade quicker as temperature gets hotter.

Normal R/C applications will not get either material hot enough to cause a change in properties.

Water absorption: unless it's a really top quality carbon with good sealant resin, CF will absorb water and degrade in performance.

This is true, but the water absorption is minimal if a good sealant is used. Unfortunately, many R/C companies use very low grade CF, which will absorb water and lose some strength.

Oxidation: carbon fibre oxidise and looses strength as it oxidise. The oxidation level is quite low at room temperature but increases with temperature and also chemical contaminant

The carbon in the CF material does undergo oxidation, but so do aluminum alloys. They are both susceptible to galvanic corrosion, but aluminum does have the advantage of a passive oxide layer that forms on its surface in the presence of oxygen.

Durability. as seen above CF will not have durability in time as you have with Aluminium. So be mindful as your product will not be as good in 10 years with CF as it is in Aluminium.

At room temperature, quality carbon fiber will not degrade substantially in 10 years. If the resin forms a good seal, oxidation of the carbon reinforcing fibers will be minimal. However, it is true that aluminum alloys stored and used in a non-corrosive environment will last longer.

Also failure mode with CF is much more difficult to predict, analyse and failure are not a controlled as Aluminium. CF will shatter when crack initiate from a minimal defect or chip.

This part is spot on. The failure of carbon fiber materials is very unpredictable. It's a brittle material, and even tiny stress cracks grow and spread very easily. Aluminum alloys on the other hand form stress cracks very easily, but are very resistant to their growth.

CF tends to be more expensive than aluminum, but has some radar reflective (actually absorption) properties. CF has has good tensile strength but is not as flexible as aluminum...tends to crack under strain more than aluminum.

Pretty much sums it up. Certain types (Quasi-isotropic) of CF have a very high tensile strength, but they lack toughness (Amount of energy the material can absorb before failing). I had Quasi-isotropic CF TVPs years ago and they were great in that application where high strength and little impact toughness is required, but I would never use the material for suspension arms or bumpers.

I personally prefer high strength aluminum alloys in most applications, but CF is not as bad of a material as the original post makes it out to be.

 

[kvnnets]

Very Interesting arguement. Gentlemen. Care to respond.

 

[Pope]

In the R/C world I don't know that all that maters much how many of us continue to run a given car for more than a few years. If you are using CF you are most likely racing or the price doesn't really bother you so you won't care about any of that anyway. One other thing most of us here are using CF parts from PRC who makes parts out of much higher quality CF than the parts you buy in your LHS. Infact some of those parts aren't really CF but graphite.

 

[kvnnets]

In the R/C world I don't know that all that maters much how many of us continue to run a given car for more than a few years. If you are using CF you are most likely racing or the price doesn't really bother you so you won't care about any of that anyway. One other thing most of us here are using CF parts from PRC who makes parts out of much higher quality CF than the parts you buy in your LHS. Infact some of those parts aren't really CF but graphite.

I wonder if someone fro PRC can shed some light on the topic????

 

[Pope]

I'm ganna have to disagree for the most part. Not sure where you are getting your info from. Obviously CF will absorb water more than that of Aluminum as its a cloth however it is impregnated via Resin which seals it up fairly well. There are also lots of different grades of CF where most use cheap stuff that does not have very good characteristics and other's are much better. The CF will not handle the heat as much as Aluminum will but it will with stand more than 325*F, not sure where an R/C car will see those temps.

On the Oxidization, I have never seen CF oxidize. CF is more Expensive as Aluminum is much more readily available and easy to work with.

As for durability the thin aluminums on these trucks will fatigue/crack easier than any Quality CF. As far as strength the CF is much more rigid that aluminum and will crack if pushed to far where aluminum will fail far before via bending if working with the same shape.

Both have great properties and work great for the R/C enthusiast.

I have only ever had to replace 1 part due to warranty issues which was an wing mount plate for an E-Savage PRC182. This piece failed because it was being jumped time after time reaching 20' air. I replaced part for the cost of most of shipping.

He did Larsenracing is PRC.

 

[kvnnets]

He did Larsenracing is PRC.

AHH. Gotcha. My bad. Still a noob here. Don't know who's who.

 

[Pope]

No problem

 

[Bankrupter]

Yes Jason and his brother are PRC lol.

 

[Larsenracing]

LOL Thanks guys. I'm here. This thread grew fast. Lots of great discussion here.

I agree with lots of it. Most parts that RC car makers use weather OEM or aftermarket use a low grade CF wheres it doesn't have the strength or the correct process to make the material.

I do not currently make my material as I purchase it from a very high end shop. Our parts are much more expensive that any Aluminum parts and more than most CF Part manufacturers. We do mark our stuff as low as we can with very low Profit margins to be as competitive as we can with the best material as we can. We are not out here to make big money as it is a part time job we do for fun for our love for the R/C hobbies.

We are fairly new to this and I do not have all the answerers to every question but do know a bit on the process's and my materials.

I have had my CF truck for roughly 3 years and have run about 12 gallons of fuel threw it all hard bashing and still looks as good as it did the day I installed it with the exception of some marks and scratches in the bottom of the skid plate. Here are a few shots of it originally at the bottom then some a little fresher toward the top: http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s123/larsenracing/Our Parts/Savage chassis/

Here is a shot of it recently all cleaned up just before a Monster Jam event I hosted a few months ago.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s123/larsenracing/Savage X/Picco 28/Trucks010.jpg

The only think I do know for a little in site is that I have only replaced 1 part due to warranty issues which was an wing mount plate for an E-Savage PRC182. This piece failed because it was being jumped time after time reaching 20' air and more. The part did crack however it is mounted very weakly but does a great job and will with stand pretty much anything you do with it.

 

[kvnnets]

LOL Thanks guys. I'm here. This thread grew fast. Lots of great discussion here.

I agree with lots of it. Most parts that RC car makers use weather OEM or aftermarket use a low grade CF wheres it doesn't have the strength or the correct process to make the material.

I do not currently make my material as I purchase it from a very high end shop. Our parts are much more expensive that any Aluminum parts and more than most CF Part manufacturers. We do mark our stuff as low as we can with very low Profit margins to be as competitive as we can with the best material as we can. We are not out here to make big money as it is a part time job we do for fun for our love for the R/C hobbies.

We are fairly new to this and I do not have all the answerers to every question but do know a bit on the process's and my materials.

I have had my CF truck for roughly 3 years and have run about 12 gallons of fuel threw it all hard bashing and still looks as good as it did the day I installed it with the exception of some marks and scratches in the bottom of the skid plate. Here are a few shots of it originally at the bottom then some a little fresher toward the top: http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s123/larsenracing/Our Parts/Savage chassis/

Here is a shot of it recently all cleaned up just before a Monster Jam event I hosted a few months ago.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s123/larsenracing/Savage X/Picco 28/Trucks010.jpg

The only think I do know for a little in site is that I have only replaced 1 part due to warranty issues which was an wing mount plate for an E-Savage PRC182. This piece failed because it was being jumped time after time reaching 20' air and more. The part did crack however it is mounted very weakly but does a great job and will with stand pretty much anything you do with it.

Hey,

I sent you a PM about a full 250cc mid tank setup. Did you receive it?