Engine Modding Leave it for the pros!

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Grumpy1822

Savage Owner
Messages
790
Location
Kenner, Louisiana
Ok, I thought and thought about this post. Its going to offend some people. I tried to think of a way to put this delicately, but I just cant. Why would I post this knowing its going to anger people. I want to try and put a stop to an alarming trend that I've noticed lately. People ruining their engines. Not everyone with a dremmel can mod engines. The following pics are from someone who just did flow mods. If done right maybe 10% performance gains. The way that the engine is in the pics 50% decreased engine life. The sad part is there are a lot worse than these posted here. People comment "good job" either to be polite or they just don't know what to look for. I think this is only escalting the problem. These are some of the better ones, but check my highlights in the pics. You may have to click the pic for full size. You should any way to see the pics in detail.

First pic, dremmel skip marks, scratches.
Parts012-1.jpg



Second pic, pay close attention to the wavy line in the inside of the cut. Thats your chrome liner. A jagged line like that will cause the liner to peel or wear prematurely.

IMG_3420.jpg

Another burr,
Parts011.jpg


Forth pic, look at the line at the top of the port. See how uneven it is. The point is to improve flow. Ragged lines wont accomplish this.
Parts013.jpg


And lastly, how much of this crank is left? Wow, I don't see that holding up very long. Look also at the wavy line where the crank was cut. I didnt highlight that.
Parts030.jpg


Again sorry if I offended any of the amature modders on the site, but modding is an aquired skill that takes a lot of time and sacrificed engines. If your not willing to throw away a few engines to learn, don't pick this up as a hobby. If your just doing it ti learn and your willing to take a chance, thats fine, but not a good idea to offer your services to others unless you make sure they know that your practicing on their mill.
 
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I agree on your point Jimmy

1stpart

Like Pure always says, "If you cant afford to walk over to garbage can and throw the mill away, don't TOUCH IT"

I would say evan a promodder can screw up, imagine how hard it is to be consistant modding as a 1st timer

2nd part

One thing about the crank shown in pic, I thought the same thing when I saw it posted here.
And the engine it went into I think, was just sold off to another member......
the book
 
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Thats the thing I want to prevent with this thread. Selling of subpar work. I'm trying to educate people somewhat as what to look for. The real pros can add their input. I'm sure a trained eye can spot things I may have missed.
 
Yes the first picture does have a Dremmal mark on it. Got a little crazy with the dremmal. The mark is not deep at all and will not affect performance as it is between the ports which is dead space.

The second picture is of a S25 old crappy mill just playing with and got a little carried away. However this mill runs pretty well for what it will be used for. Durability of this thing doesn't matter as its probably got 6-7 gallons thru it before this. Just a very fast Mod job.

3rd pick was flint from felt polishing wheel.

4th never touched the top edges of the port other than with the felt polishing wheel. Probably poor lighting.

5th picture measured more than .125" left in the bottom of the crank which should be plenty left to keep its durability.

I am no professional modder and never claimed to be. The Mach 427 ran like a top, Never had a mill modded or stock run like that little .27 does. However I have never had a professionally modded mill in my position before either.
 
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ummm...so did i buy a lemon? wow grumpy. i appreciate your concern and your willingness to stick your neck out. hmmm...i guess i'll just have to wait and see. please, more comments. dammit!
 
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Had it not been sold jmanglona this thread most likely would not have arisen. I also saw a few skips in those pics not hi lighted. But thought it was his own motor so it didn't matter to me. The closing side of the crank got my attn worse than the burns on the sleeve. I think grumps intent was to warn all the members on here if your going to spend money on a mill that has gone under the knife make sure its a pro. I also play with the round knife but would never sell a mill I did nore do it to another's mill. I can do it myself but still pay pruenitro to do it for me. I only cut my LRP caz Pure is cutting a P3 for me and I could drop the LRP in the round file and not care.
 
ummm...so did i buy a lemon? wow grumpy. i appreciate your concern and your willingness to stick your neck out. hmmm...i guess i'll just have to wait and see. please, more comments. dammit!



The only answer to that is time.

I hope it lasts forever for you my man
 
Well stated Grumpy-I agree because I have seen it time and time again on full scale motors and other backyard mechanic projects that eventually come to me or other Pro's to figure out and repair.
I have extensive experience with port and polish on V-8 heads but I would never even try to do my Savage motor.I mean why chance it-some things are better left to the Pro's IMHO.
As stated by Grump-I also do not intend to put down anyones P&P jobs on here-not trying to flame anything or anyone.
 
jmanglona- You will be happy with the mod of the 427. This is by far the best mill I have done. I am in the learning process and by far from a pro moder and would never compare my self to one. This engine made some great power compared to any I have ran before.

I am in no way offering my services to others as a engine modder and will probably never do so. I have only done this for my self and for learning with friends mills.

All of the pictures I have posted have not been throughly cleaned or oil as I do this just be before installation so every things fresh.

I want to thank you Grumpy for stating what you did. You have not hurt my feelings as all the information was already known or couldn't have been seen in the picture's.


PS> The 2nd picture is of a completely different mill.
 
wow guys...the concern for another member and his purchasing mistakes has far exceeded my expectations. but i don't want to count out anything as of right now. time will tell. you guys are great!
 
ya know i am willing to bet all the "pro modders" out there started out by doing a lil work on there own trucks.....then maybe doing and engine for a buddy or 2....then one day a guy at the local track sees how well his engine runs and asks "hey dude can ya make my engine run like that" then word gets around that he does good work...and it spreads from there....

I say keep up the good work larson...
 
Thanks guys for your concerns and your faith J man. You will be happy with the gains from the motor.

I just wanted to clarify this. I posted back an update on how the mill ran for the quart I have thru it and stated that I had a bud that possibly wanted it. J man PMed and asked what I wanted for it, I stated that I was not sure if I wanted to sell it. He replied asking what I wanted so I told him and he the said Ill take it. I did not by any means push the sale of this mill or do any advertising of this mill. I just simply put how impressed I was with it.

He will get a great mill which is in great shape and had a nice break-in. It will not last 10 gallons but will last plenty long for him to more than enjoy it.

I have yet to wear a mill out and have 7-10 gallons on several. They have all dies a hard death of landing upside down or whatever and cracking the block's or busting motor mounts and tearing the tab off of a side or what have ya.
 
ya know i am willing to bet all the "pro modders" out there started out by doing a lil work on there own trucks.....then maybe doing and engine for a buddy or 2....then one day a guy at the local track sees how well his engine runs and asks "hey dude can ya make my engine run like that" then word gets around that he does good work...and it spreads from there....

I say keep up the good work larson...

LOL, very true. Everyone has to stat somewhere. I will never get into the business like Pure and try to sell engine's I have done. I'm doing it for fun and for my own self. I'm a one for power. If there's a way to improve it I'll give it a shot to get more from it.
 
Looks can be deceiving! I'm not going to bash on anyone but I do see some points of interest. The cranks from the sh, lrp, mach and dynamite are all clones as well as most of the sleeves, from what I have seen there is no need to open the closing side of the induction port as it is already there in terms of timing.

The plug in the crank is used for ramping the airfuel mix into the crank, over filling it will cut the flow thus lowering the performance. A steady hand is a must in all aspects of sleeve and crank work as one wrong slip on the chrome and it may not be fixable.

.125 left at the end of the crank is not nearly enough support for a bashing mill, there is alot of stress put on that area and I have seen the end of the crank ripped out of the body from such deep machining (not my own).

I honestly think that the huge gain in power comes from running a higher end mill then the S25 or the Sirio .30 These engines come with very nice timing profiles to start with so if you have never run one before, it will realy be an eye opener when you see the performance. As for it smoking a picco .28 (a little birdy told me this) it just won't happen, I'm sorry.

I guess one thing that gets under my skin a little is I sell TVP's as well. Out of proffesional consideration I have not said much about them here due to the fact there is another member selling them. When I see a engine that looks identical to my pics that I post for people I am flattered, when I see it for sale, I feel like taking down all my pics as that was not what they were intended for.

I'm here to help people, that's all this post is meant for, sorry Jason if this sounds harsh but I have been asked to "fix" too many engines for people who didn't know better. I have spent thousands on engines makng mistakes and learning before I offered my mods to the public, I believe that is the best way to do business. Thanks

Robin.
 
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wow...i would really like to see where this thread goes, i will definitely leave a comment as to how the mill holds up. it is broken in, so i intend on bashing the hell out of it, and see how much it will take. i'm transferring parts as we speak. :drunk:

i think big worm is his buddy???
 
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Big worm is not a buddy of mine. I do not have a friendly relation ship with him not have I ever spoke with him other than in threads. He is family of the Forum.

I will have to look into the depth of the crank where I removed material (lightening it). I stated it was at least .125" this was off the top of my head. This engine was done a while back and I do not remember these # in my head.

I have also never offered to mod things for others for money and never will. This is something I do for myself as a learning experience.
 
PS> I am no pro modder. All modders picked this up and had a long learning curve as well. I have done 10 or so mills which is just a pup when it comes to modding.

From here on I will leave all my mills out of the forum that I have worked on or done. I'm by all means not here to compete with other modders such as Pure or Crash. I have posted and had this section created so we all can post our stuff and hope for others to help us out. Its no a here's my work i'm the best thread its a thread created for help and critique. I have not taken offense to this as I am learning. However, I will leave my modding for my shop, cuz I don't want anyone thinking I'm selling mills nor do I want to be compatition as I have pleanty of stuff to worrie about over trying that.
 
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PS> I am no pro modder. All modders picked this up and had a long learning curve as well. I have done 10 or so mills which is just a pup when it comes to modding.

From here on I will leave all my mills out of the forum that I have worked on or done. I'm by all means not here to compete with other modders such as Pure or Crash. I have posted and had this section created so we all can post our stuff and hope for others to help us out. Its no a here's my work i'm the best thread its a thread created for help and critique. I have not taken offense to this as I am learning. However, I will leave my modding for my shop.


jayson, ouch.

Forum members, no I'm not in the buisness of modding engines.

I have done a few here at the forum for free or materials cost.

we have three engine modders here at HPISF they are all profesional companys and we are proud to have them here.

AB mods http://www.abmods.com/
RB mods http://rbmods.net/home.php
Extreme RC mods http://extremercmods.com/ SALE ON NOW!


Jayson, I have always thought your work looked good for a amature modder, which means you have potential to do great things with these engines.

You have modded 10 engines

aside from the HPI .25 in the snowmobile we havnt saw the results of your work. That would help reasure jmanglona.

good luck with your transaction
Dan
 
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I greatly appreciate it Crash. I know I got work to do to become a great modder. This 427 actually turned out great and impressive compared to my other stuff. Most of the others weren't that great all thought my Mach .26 in my buggy is a machine as well.

The HPI .25 I tried a different tool and was way to aggressive. I don't see that it affected the power of the worn out mill for the worst but probably didn't help it. The motor actually runs pretty well yet.

Like I stated I will never be a competitor to these 3 modders of others. I'm here doing this like you Crash for fun and to learn as much as I can about this little power monsters. I will never selling modding or mod engines and advertise them or anything. This is not at all why I do this.

If the you read the post above it states how the sale went and I did not advertise to sell it. I was hesitant to sell it very much so because I liked the mill and loved the power.

Matter of fact I purchased another 427 yesterday to fill it's position and will do another very close to the same way to throw back into my truck. If this doesn't state how satisfied I was with the outcome then I'm not sure what does.

Enough said other than Thank you Crash.

By the way I will post some better video of the snowmobile with the s25 running but am waiting for the new drive wheel and need to do a few other things to get traction and so on.
 
Larson keep up the effort. I want to see it run. yes it has visible flaws but big deal.. What bits are you using that make it jump on you? I do know the bits I use are easily controllable. I cant sign my name on the edge of the sleeve like robin can but that is just nuts for tool control. I do know my bits never jump and or attempt to jump. look into to other bits 4 sure.

as far as this:

"I have also never offered to mod things for others for money and never will."

I know more than you see here in the threads and that is where my statement to big worm came from. Not what is visible here in the threads.
 
To show my Support to Robin I have added a link to his web site in my Sig.

I as well have spoken with Robin on mills more on front seals and have learnd lots from him on this. He has also been there and told me about modding and a little on what to and what not to do. Robin is a great guy and does a unbeatable job.
 
I know more than you see here in the threads and that is where my statement to big worm came from. Not what is visible here in the threads.

Alright I have offered to do one for a guy here or there who asked and talked with but never for money. I would not have messed with timing at all just done some flow work.

The bits I am now using are tungsten (Similar to thishttp://www.toolbarn.com/product/dremel/D-9903/ ) and are easy to control. My kid ran up and straight into me when I did the mark in the first picture on the 427, I had no clue she was coming. She now knows not to do this when i'm in my shop, the little brat, LOL.
 
lol cool my man. Yea, that deal behind closed doors I feel is behind allot of animosity. Some people sink ships bud choose them wisely..

Gonna look at the bits in a sec. I also had too many people want me to do their mill after I posted the LRP. They all got a fat NO. and PYRO next to begged... Its hard to say no but its in best interest for all to keep mods in house. When they say I don't care if it blows up they don't truly mean it! I would not let anyone do a mill till I knew of 15+ jobs all went well and none blew up. I wont even use RB mods for issues he has made. I give the nod to AB and Robin. I was also told the OS-28 in the vid A B showed blew up. But that's not confirmed Just what a guy that's no longer a member here told me...
 
I would like to add that you did do a pretty good job on the flow work Jason, again I meant no harm with my post, it was for information, that's it! We have talked over the years and I can see that it has helped you. Thanks for adding me in your sig, that was cool of you. I have also heard of these "deals" off site and just ignored them as it wasn't worth starting anything over. Keep working on it and your skills will become more refined with time.
 
Robin, no harm done nor taken.

Crash you are correct I don't really have any videos of some of the engines I have modded. I will have to do that in the future. I just don't have a great video camera and when I'm running my truck everyone with me is running truck so no one want's to stand there and tape them. I'd ask my wife but she would tell me straight NO I hate those stupid things. I will get more in the future.

I'm surprised that you all know that I have said I can do some slight modding for people. All I can think of was 2 different occasions other than doing a buds engines which I do all the work on.


Anyhow, all you people on the forum you really what to watch out for this stuff. The threads that I along with many others have posted in the Custom Engine modding section are newbies at this and are doing it to try to better our selfs. We by all means are not here to be roll models or looked up to. Our cuts may not always be correct which is why you need to cut at your own risk as there is a good chance of completely wrecking an engine or doing more harm than good.
 
I think having this modding section is a great tool, but there is something that I have noticed. Quite a few people have tried there hand at doing a flow mod and they come here to post up pictures, the interesting and concerning part is how most of them never come back with any feedback. I would think that if the flow mod was a success, they would be more then happy to come and report how well it turned out, but they don't. This is not a good situation and is very unfortunate for the people who have wrecked their engines!

I will say that a couple years back I had an issue with a axial engine, putting the con rod back onto the crank pin. It was a very tight fit, tight enough that it pushed the bushing out a little. I was not able to fix this and I promised the owner it would be ready the next day. There was not enough time to order a new rod so I had to buy a new engine from the lhs for over $200 just for the rod. Obviously I took a hit on that one but that is what it takes if you are going to offer this type of work to the public. I haven't had any issues since, but I can say it's only a blink of an eye away when you work with such small delicate parts.

Like Dan said (quoting me) If you can't afford to toss your mill in the garbage, is it worth risking it for a 10-15% gain? If you can, GREAT have at it, If you can't, be happy with what you have. Thanks.

Robin.
 

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